Discussion in 'The Howard Stern Show' started by skylarbrie, Dec 7, 2014.
I know there has been a lot of criticism of all the demonstrations (rioting) going on. I will preface this with saying the Ferguson thing was bullshit- that mike brown kid was an asshole- and he deserved getting shot. There is no justification for his fists being in a cop car and the riots over it were bullshit.
But the media have linked Mike brown with the situations with Travon Martin and Eric Garner and that is tragic.
The Eric Garner situation is sad and pathetic.... I have empathy for those being upset. I think ALL AMERICANS should be upset about the eric garner situation.
Eric Garner was committing a petty crime- something akin to jaywalking, or loitering.... There was no justification for being so physical with him. He was obviously older and obese- unless he landed on someone- he wasnt going to do much. The over the top police action KILLED him.
The story focuses on race too much though..... the real story is police corruption. The grand jury rightfully refused to indict on a MURDER charge.... this charge requires a jury person to find that the cops saw this guy and thought, "i want to kill this guy" and then kill him. The grand jury did not get the opportunity to indict on negligent homicide- or involuntary manslaughter. Negligent homicide means- I was acting unreasonably and as a result someone died even though i didnt intend it. This is a classic negligent homicide case.
Now why didn't the DA charge the police with negligent homicide????
The DA cares about keeping his job. DA's get elected in elections. The police union has a lot of influence on local elections- they have more money to spend and have a habit of using money in EVERY election. The police union say- Mr DA, you better not charge these officers with a real crime or we will make sure you lose your job. But the DA cant Decide not to charge at all because that is bad publicity- so makes a grand jury hearing on a Murder charge knowing that the grand jury cant indict on that charge- thereby EVERYONE is happy. DA gets to keep the job, saving face with the public and cops wink and nod saying they will endorse him for the next election.
Police unions are corrupt. A police Union was what kept justice from Eric Garner. Police unions allow police brutality to flourish. Smart people like the very democratic Franklin D Roosevelt acknowledge this and wrote essays why the military and police should never be unionized. He worried that the military might get too much political power and put the nation in danger (putting their self-interest of pay and perks ahead of the interest in doing their jobs well) While these unions were banned federally- FDR left a door open for police, firefighters, teachers to unionize with an argument that individual states should decide on whether to allow or restrict public sector unions themselves.
The reason for the coverups and police brutality protections is because these unions are in place. The unions give cops the feeling of us vs. them over every interaction with the public. If the US really wants to protect citizens from real police brutality- breaking up the unions should be the focus.... not having "discusssions over race." Race didnt stop charges being brought in the eric garner case- it was police union corruption.
FUCK YOU AND YOUR STUPID FUCKING THREADS.
Jesus loves you
i know He does.
The right comparison are the deaths of Eric Garner and Kelly Thomas. Neither were doing anything that would require much attention let alone an insane amount of force. The Kelly Thomas case was far more savage and he was a white guy. A jury refused to convict the police of anything INCLUDING involuntary manslaughter. Two cops beating a homeless guy to a a pulp while they came away unscathed. If a jury isn't convicting them for this one, the Garner case was never going to be a win for justice.
I agree with much of your post here, Big Suede, but the guy was committing a petty crime for the 30th time*.
And there is no question that the officers had within their discretion the power to arrest this man. There is nothing unreasonable about their decision to do so.
And there is no question that this man was not going to allow himself to be arrested absent a physical confrontation. That was a decision that he made.
And there is no question that once the resisting began, the officers then had an obligation to ensure that this man was taken into custody.
There is perhaps more room for debate when we look at the manner in which the suspect was taken down. But given that he weighed about twice what any of the officers arresting him weighed, the basic headlock (not "chokehold") seemed like a fairly quick and effective method to achieve some manner of control over the physically imposing suspect. I'd personally look a little more closely at how long the knee on the back of the head was necessary given the number of officers who were then present to assist with the arrest. But I doubt that even this is outside the bounds of accepted department apprehension techniques.
In the end, Garner made the decisions that inadvertently ended his life. He made the decision to sell contraband on the street. And knowing of his asthma, his level of physical fitness and other various aspects of his medical condition, he made the decision to resist arrest.
* Actually, many of his previous crimes weren't petty at all.
LOL- ok dude. Let's keep things in perspective. The guy was selling cigs due to a CRAZY NYC tax law. A pack of cigs cost 13 bucks- you can buy them online for 5 bucks a pack. The guy was making money off tax evasion. Tax evasion crimes get handled with fines and court dates.... not arresting anyone and throwing them in jail. The irony is that there are billions of dollars in tax evasion going on on wall street- but the NYPD is worrying about a guy that maybe makes 50 bucks a day. He should have been given a ticket and told to see a judge.... why the need to even touch him?
On top of that- the guy is way overweight- he was justifiable worried about being taken to the ground. I am 210, 6'3.... I wouldnt want to be taken down to the ground either- and he has 200 more pounds than me.
But again- this is a situation that called for a ticket...
The man shot in a dark stairwell while walking will be interesting
From all reports, there were a couple of police initiatives that laid the groundwork for NYC's precipitous drop in crime. One is the highly controversial "stop and frisk" policy which can certainly be the subject of another debate. The other, somewhat less controversial, approach has been the cracking down on petty lawlessness very much like this. And I'm sorry, but when you've been arrested 30 times before and you're currently out on bail for four additional crimes, there's a very good chance you're going to be arrested if you're observed committing another crime - even a minor one. The comparison to Wall Street style tax evasion crimes is a red herring. I promise you that if a Wall Street lawyer set up a card table out on the street with a sign that read "Illegal Tax Evasion Services Available", these very same officers would have taken interest in that as well. But that's not how those crimes are uncovered and these officers aren't the ones responsible for searching out such criminals.
Finally, if the guy was justifiably "worried about being taken to the ground", then he could have very easily avoided being taken to the ground by simply putting his hands behind his back and cooperating with the officers. Only by absolving Garner of any and all personal responsibility can you come to the conclusion that some gross miscarriage of justice occurred here.
you make a plausible argument, but the crime rate is down everywhere in America, with the acceptation being the murder rate in Chicago, which was prompted by the dismantling of housing projects, and the subsequent co mingling of warring gangs...the big brute was simply exercising his constitutional right to peacefully protest an injustice
You lost me here. Are we still talking about Garner?
If so, I don't believe there's any constitutional right to sell contraband merchandise. And he stopped being peaceful when he refused to allow the officers to cuff him.
I know a high ranking NY detective. He refers to blacks as 'perps', constantly....It's hilarious
You want cops to stop being racist? Get reggies to start behaving. Problem solved.