FBI going back to 9MM

Discussion in 'The Bar' started by Stew Nod, Oct 6, 2014.

  1. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    I've always felt the higher calibers were over kill....Lotta myths in handgun circles

    http://prepperchimp.com/2014/10/06/the-fbi-is-going-9mm-here-comes-the-science/


    [​IMG]
    The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science



    [​IMG]
    by Prepper
    October 6, 2014
    Concealed Carry, Cops, Guns & Ammo, Self-Defence
    One Comment

    0


    The Federal Bureau of Investigation is an institution that is very slow to change. When the FBI changes its standard carry caliber and handgun, you can bet a lot of study went into the change. Let the handwringing and caliber chest beating begin!

    From LoadOutRoom.com:

    With the amazing 21st-century advances in ammunition technology, many people have advocated a move back to 9mm. Recently, the FBI announced they were buying a new gun in 9mm. When the FBI makes a move like that, they have thought it through very thoroughly.

    I respect the science and how hard it was for them to make this change. The FBI takes their leadership role in law enforcement very seriously. Below is their carefully crafted message, sent to other agencies, explaining their reasons.

    With the amazing 21st-century advances in ammunition technology, many people have advocated a move back to 9mm. Recently, the FBI announced they were buying a new gun in 9mm. When the FBI makes a move like that, they have thought it through very thoroughly.

    I respect the science and how hard it was for them to make this change. The FBI takes their leadership role in law enforcement very seriously. Below is their carefully crafted message, sent to other agencies, explaining their reasons.

    FBI 9MM Justification

    FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA

    Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

    · Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

    · Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

    · Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

    · In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

    · Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

    · The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

    · LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

    · Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

    · 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

    · 9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

    · The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

    · There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

    · Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

    Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

    Rarely in law enforcement does a topic stir a more passionate debate than the choice of handgun caliber made by a law enforcement organization. Many voice their opinions by repeating the old adage “bigger is better” while others have “heard of this one time” where a smaller caliber failed and a larger caliber “would have performed much better.” Some even subscribe to the belief that a caliber exists which will provide a “one shot stop.” It has been stated, “Decisions on ammunition selection are particularly difficult because many of the pertinent issues related to handguns and ammunition are firmly rooted in myth and folklore.” This still holds as true today as it did when originally stated 20 years ago.

    Caliber, when considered alone, brings about a unique set of factors to consider such as magazine capacity for a given weapon size, ammunition availability, felt recoil, weight and cost. What is rarely discussed, but most relevant to the caliber debate is what projectile is being considered for use and its terminal performance potential.

    One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officersand in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.

    Understanding Handgun Caliber Terminal Ballistic Realities

    Many so called “studies” have been performed and many analyses of statistical data have been undertaken regarding this issue. Studies simply involving shooting deaths are irrelevant since the goal of law enforcement is to stop a threat during a deadly force encounter as quickly as possible. Whether or not death occurs is of no consequence as long as the threat of death or serious injury to law enforcement personnel and innocent third parties is eliminated.

    “The concept of immediate incapacitation is the only goal of any law enforcement shooting and is the underlying rationale for decisions regarding weapons, ammunition, calibers and training.”1

    Studies of “stopping power” are irrelevant because no one has ever been able to define how much power, force, or kinetic energy, in and of itself, is required to effectively stop a violent and determined adversary quickly, and even the largest of handgun calibers are not capable of delivering such force. Handgun stopping power is simply a myth. Studies of so?called “one shot stops” being used as a tool to define the effectiveness of one handgun cartridge, as opposed to another, are irrelevant due to the inability to account for psychological influences and due to the lack of reporting specific shot placement.

    In short, extensive studies have been done over the years to “prove” a certain cartridge is better than another by using grossly flawed methodology and or bias as a precursor to manipulating statistics. In order to have a meaningful understanding of handgun terminal ballistics, one must only deal with facts that are not in dispute within the medical community, i.e. medical realities, and those which are also generally accepted within law enforcement, i.e. tactical realities.

    Medical Realities

    Shots to the Central Nervous System (CNS) at the level of the cervical spine (neck) or above, are the only means to reliably cause immediate incapacitation. In this case, any of the calibers commonly used in law enforcement, regardless of expansion, would suffice for obvious reasons. Other than shots to the CNS, the most reliable means for affecting rapid incapacitation is by placing shots to large vital organs thus causing rapid blood loss. Simply stated, shot placement is the most critical component to achieving either method of incapacitation.

    Wounding factors between rifle and handgun projectiles differ greatly due to the dramatic differences in velocity, which will be discussed in more detail herein. The wounding factors, in order of importance, are as follows:

    Click here to read the rest.
     
  2. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    are you familiar with the infamous Miami shootout?
     
  3. Artie Laugh

    Artie Laugh ****

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    I want to read it, but that's a lot of words.
     
  4. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    That being said I've been a 9mm proponent since way back in the way back. With todays ammo selection it doesn't have to take a backseat to any caliber.
     
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  5. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    No sir
     
  6. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    FWIW, if I were a cop in Alaska I'd want a 10mm. You never know if you'll be facing a moose or a felon bundled in thick winter garb.

    It's hard to paint every jurisdiction in the nation's needs with a single brush stroke.
     
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  7. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    FBI is pretty much the authority on ballistics, kill ratio, hit percentages.....etc

    They are arming their agents with 9MMs
     
  8. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    Did you read the part about penetration depth?


    @Teeney
     
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  9. Teeney

    Teeney My friends call me Lissette Gold

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    Only the tip
     
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  10. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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  11. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    always with the wit! :heart:
     
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  12. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    I base stuff on things I've seen and done first hand. Feel free to stand toe to toe with a moose with only a 9mm if you want, you wont catch me doing it. :jj:


    [​IMG]
     
  13. Artie Laugh

    Artie Laugh ****

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    :thumbup2:
     
  14. Artie Laugh

    Artie Laugh ****

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    Won't he go down if you shoot him in the knee caps?
     
  15. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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  16. Stew Nod

    Stew Nod Hello VIP

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    We do have large black women like that at Walmart, but I'd just run from them :rofl:
     
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  17. Mack

    Mack Well-Known Member

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    You'd probably be better off ringing his bell with a shot to an antler and then climbing a tree as fast as fucking possible.
     
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  18. Scott

    Scott Masshole Staff Member

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    And they thought it through very thoroughly
     
  19. Danas Boyfrien

    Danas Boyfrien Trump's African American Gold

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    All I read was that LEOs miss 70-80% of the time. :facepalm:
     
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  20. gwartney

    gwartney Unafilliated Gold

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    I hope they have better leadership than the secret service.