The Horror Before the Beheadings .

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  1. chapped

    chapped Well-Known Member

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    • His videotaped death was a very public end to a hidden ordeal.

      The story of what happened in the Islamic State’s underground network of prisons in Syria is one of excruciating suffering. Mr. Foley and his fellow hostages were routinely beaten and subjected to waterboarding. For months, they were starved and threatened with execution by one group of fighters, only to be handed off to another group that brought them sweets and contemplated freeing them. The prisoners banded together, playing games to pass the endless hours, but as conditions grew more desperate, they turned on one another. Some, including Mr. Foley, sought comfort in the faith of their captors, embracing Islam and taking Muslim names.

      Their captivity coincided with the rise of the group that came to be known as the Islamic State out of the chaos of the Syrian civil war. It did not exist on the day Mr. Foley was abducted, but it slowly grew to become the most powerful and feared rebel movement in the region. By the second year of Mr. Foley’s imprisonment, the group had amassed close to two dozen hostages and devised a strategy to trade them for cash.

      It was at that point that the hostages’ journeys, which had been largely similar up to then, diverged based on actions taken thousands of miles away: in Washington and Paris, in Madrid, Rome and beyond. Mr. Foley was one of at least 23 Western hostages from 12 countries, a majority of them citizens of European nations whose governments have a history of paying ransoms.

      Their struggle for survival, which is being told now for the first time, was pieced together through interviews with five former hostages, locals who witnessed their treatment, relatives and colleagues of the captives, and a tight circle of advisers who made trips to the region to try to win their release. Crucial details were confirmed by a former member of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, who was initially stationed in the prison where Mr. Foley was held, and who provided previously unknown details of his captivity.

      The ordeal has remained largely secret because the militants warned the hostages’ families not to go to the news media, threatening to kill their loved ones if they did. The New York Times is naming only those already identified publicly by the Islamic State, which began naming them in August.

      Officials in the United States say they did everything in their power to save Mr. Foley and the others, including carrying out a failed rescue operation. They argue that the United States’ policy of not paying ransoms saves Americans’ lives in the long run by making them less attractive targets.

      Inside their concrete box, the hostages did not know what their families or governments were doing on their behalf. They slowly pieced it together using the only information they had: their interactions with their guards and with one another. Mostly they suffered, waiting for any sign that they might escape with their lives.

      The Grab

      It was only a 40-minute drive to the Turkish border, but Mr. Foley decided to make one last stop.

      In Binesh, Syria, two years ago, Mr. Foley and his traveling companion, the British photojournalist John Cantlie, pulled into an Internet cafe to file their work. The two were no strangers to the perils of reporting in Syria. Only a few months earlier, Mr. Cantlie had been kidnapped a few dozen miles from Binesh. He had tried to escape, barefoot and handcuffed, running for his life as bullets kicked up the dirt, only to be caught again. He was released a week later after moderate rebels intervened.

      They were uploading their images when a man walked in.

      “He had a big beard,” said Mustafa Ali, their Syrian translator, who was with them and recounted their final hours together. “He didn’t smile or say anything. And he looked at us with evil eyes.”

      The man “went to the computer and sat for one minute only, and then left directly,” Mr. Ali said. “He wasn’t Syrian. He looked like he was from the Gulf.”

      Mr. Foley, an American freelance journalist filing for GlobalPost and Agence France-Presse, and Mr. Cantlie, a photographer for British newspapers, continued transmitting their footage, according to Mr. Ali, whose account was confirmed by emails the journalists sent from the cafe to a colleague waiting for them in Turkey.

      Photo
      [​IMG]
      James Foley edited video from Aleppo, Syria, two weeks before he was kidnapped in November 2012.CreditNicole Tung
      More than an hour later, they flagged a taxi for the 25-mile drive to Turkey. They never reached the border.

      The gunmen who sped up behind their taxi did not call themselves the Islamic State because the group did not yet exist on Nov. 22, 2012, the day the two men were grabbed.

      But the danger of Islamic extremism was already palpable in Syria’s rebel-held territories, and some news organizations were starting to pull back. Among the red flags was the growing number of foreign fighters flooding into Syria, dreaming of establishing a “caliphate.” These jihadists, many of them veterans of Al Qaeda’s branch in Iraq, looked and behaved differently from the moderate rebels. They wore their beards long. And they spoke with foreign accents, coming from the Persian Gulf, North Africa, Europe and beyond.A van sped up on the left side of the taxi and cut it off. Masked fighters jumped out. They screamed in foreign-accented Arabic, telling the journalists to lie on the pavement. They handcuffed them and threw them into the van.

      They left Mr. Ali on the side of the road. “If you follow us, we’ll kill you,” they told him.

      Over the next 14 months, at least 23 foreigners, most of them freelance journalists and aid workers, would fall into a similar trap. The attackers identified the locals whom journalists hired to help them, like Mr. Ali and Yosef Abobaker, a Syrian translator. It was Mr. Abobaker who drove Steven J. Sotloff, an American freelance journalist, into Syria on Aug. 4, 2013.

      “We were driving for only 20 minutes when I saw three cars stopped on the road ahead,” he said. “They must have had a spy on the border that saw my car and told them I was coming.”

      The kidnappings, which were carried out by different groups of fighters jousting for influence and territory in Syria, became more frequent. In June 2013, four French journalists were abducted. In September, the militants grabbed three Spanish journalists.

      Checkpoints became human nets, and last October, insurgents waited at one for Peter Kassig, 25, an emergency medical technician from Indianapolis who was delivering medical supplies. In December, Alan Henning, a British taxi driver, disappeared at another. Mr. Henning had cashed in his savings to buy a used ambulance, hoping to join an aid caravan to Syria. He was kidnapped 30 minutes after crossing into the country.

      The last to vanish were five aid workers from Doctors Without Borders, who were plucked in January from the field hospital in rural Syria where they had been working.

      The Interrogation

      At gunpoint, Mr. Sotloff and Mr. Abobaker were driven to a textile factory in a village outside Aleppo, Syria, where they were placed in separate cells. Mr. Abobaker, who was freed two weeks later, heard their captors take Mr. Sotloff into an adjoining room. Then he heard the Arabic-speaking interrogator say in English: “Password.”

      It was a process to be repeated with several other hostages. The kidnappers seized their laptops, cellphones and cameras and demanded the passwords to their accounts. They scanned their Facebook timelines, their Skype chats, their image archives and their emails, looking for evidence of collusion with Western spy agencies and militaries.

      “They took me to a building that was specifically for the interrogation,” said Marcin Suder, a 37-year-old Polish photojournalist kidnapped in July 2013 in Saraqib, Syria, where the jihadists were known to be operating. He was passed among several groups before managing to escape four months later.
     
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  2. chapped

    chapped Well-Known Member

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    • “They checked my camera,” Mr. Suder said. “They checked my tablet. Then they undressed me completely. I was naked. They looked to see if there was a GPS chip under my skin or in my clothes. Then they started beating me. They Googled ‘Marcin Suder and C.I.A.,’ ‘Marcin Suder and K.G.B.’ They accused me of being a spy.”Mr. Suder — who was never told the name of the group holding him, and who never met the other hostages because he escaped before they were transferred to the same location — remarked on the typically English vocabulary his interrogators had used.

      During one session, they kept telling him he had been “naughty” — a word that hostages who were held with Mr. Foley also recalled their guards’ using during the most brutal torture.

      It was in the course of these interrogations that the jihadists found images of American military personnel on Mr. Foley’s laptop, taken during his assignments in Afghanistan and Iraq.

      “In the archive of photographs he had personally taken, there were images glorifying the American crusaders,” they wrote in an article published after Mr. Foley’s death. “Alas for James, this archive was with him at the time of his arrest.”

      A British hostage, David Cawthorne Haines, was forced to acknowledge his military background: It was listed on his LinkedIn profile.

      The militants also discovered that Mr. Kassig, the aid worker from Indiana, was a former Army Ranger and a veteran of the Iraq war. Both facts are easy to find online, because CNNfeatured Mr. Kassig’s humanitarian work prominently before his capture.

      The punishment for any perceived offense was torture.

      “You could see the scars on his ankles,” Jejoen Bontinck, 19, of Belgium, a teenage convert to Islam who spent three weeks in the summer of 2013 in the same cell as Mr. Foley, said of him. “He told me how they had chained his feet to a bar and then hung the bar so that he was upside down from the ceiling. Then they left him there.”

      Mr. Bontinck, who was released late last year, spoke about his experiences for the first time for this article in his hometown, Antwerp, where he is one of 46 Belgian youths on trial on charges of belonging to a terrorist organization.

      At first, the abuse did not appear to have a larger purpose. Nor did the jihadists seem to have a plan for their growing number of hostages.

      Mr. Bontinck said Mr. Foley and Mr. Cantlie had first been held by the Nusra Front, a Qaeda affiliate. Their guards, an English-speaking trio whom they nicknamed “the Beatles,” seemed to take pleasure in brutalizing them.

      Later, they were handed over to a group called the Mujahedeen Shura Council, led by French speakers.

      Mr. Foley and Mr. Cantlie were moved at least three times before being transferred to a prison underneath the Children’s Hospital of Aleppo.

      It was in this building that Mr. Bontinck, then only 18, met Mr. Foley. At first, Mr. Bontinck was a fighter, one ofthousands of young Europeans drawn to the promise of jihad. He later ran afoul of the group when he received a text message from his worried father back in Belgium and his commander accused him of being a spy.

      The militants dragged him into a basement room with pale brown walls. Inside were two very thin, bearded foreigners: Mr. Foley and Mr. Cantlie.


    • Photo
      [​IMG]
      A still image from a video, released in August, in which a militant from the group that calls itself the Islamic State beheaded James Foley.
      For the next three weeks, when the call to prayer sounded, all three stood.

      Mr. Foley converted to Islam soon after his capture and adopted the name Abu Hamza, Mr. Bontinck said. (His conversion was confirmed by three other recently released hostages, as well as by his former employer.)

      “I recited the Quran with him,” Mr. Bontinck said. “Most people would say, ‘Let’s convert so that we can get better treatment.’ But in his case, I think it was sincere.”

      Former hostages said that a majority of the Western prisoners had converted during their difficult captivity. Among them was Mr. Kassig, who adopted the name Abdul-Rahman, according to his family, who learned of his conversion in a letter smuggled out of the prison.

      Only a handful of the hostages stayed true to their own faiths, including Mr. Sotloff, then 30, a practicing Jew. On Yom Kippur, he told his guards he was not feeling well and refused his food so he could secretly observe the traditional fast, a witness said.

      Those recently released said that most of the foreigners had converted under duress, but that Mr. Foley had been captivated by Islam. When the guards brought an English version of the Quran, those who were just pretending to be Muslims paged through it, one former hostage said. Mr. Foley spent hours engrossed in the text.

      His first set of guards, from the Nusra Front, viewed his professed Islamic faith with suspicion. But the second group holding him seemed moved by it. For an extended period, the abuse stopped. Unlike the Syrian prisoners, who were chained to radiators, Mr. Foley and Mr. Cantlie were able to move freely inside their cell.

      Mr. Bontinck had a chance to ask the prison’s emir, a Dutch citizen, whether the militants had asked for a ransom for the foreigners. He said they had not.

      “He explained there was a Plan A and a Plan B,” Mr. Bontinck said. The journalists would be put under house arrest, or they would be conscripted into a jihadist training camp. Both possibilities suggested that the group was planning to release them.

      One day, their guards brought them a gift of chocolates.

      When Mr. Bontinck was released, he jotted down the phone number of Mr. Foley’s parents and promised to call them. They made plans to meet again.

      He left thinking that the journalists, like him, would soon be freed.

      A Terrorist State

      The Syrian civil war, previously dominated by secular rebels and a handful of rival jihadist groups, was shifting decisively, and the new extremist group had taken a dominant position. Sometime last year, the battalion in the Aleppo hospital pledged allegiance to what was then called the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

      Photo
      [​IMG]
      After Mr. Foley, the militants beheaded, from left, Alan Henning, a British taxi driver; Steven J. Sotloff (in the black helmet), an American journalist; and David Cawthorne Haines, a British aid worker.CreditLeft, via Associated Press; center, Etienne de Malglaive, via Getty Images; right, Danny Lawson/PA Wire
      Other factions of fighters joined forces with the group, whose tactics were so extreme that even Al Qaeda expelled it from its terror network. Its ambitions went far beyond toppling Bashar al-Assad, Syria’s president.

      Late last year, the jihadists began pooling their prisoners, bringing them to the same location underneath the hospital. By January, there were at least 19 men in one 20-square-meter cell (about 215 square feet) and four women in an adjoining one. All but one of them were European or North American. The relative freedom that Mr. Foley and Mr. Cantlie had enjoyed came to an abrupt end. Each prisoner was now handcuffed to another.

     
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  3. chapped

    chapped Well-Known Member

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    • Continue reading the main story
      More worrying was the fact that their French-speaking guards were replaced by English-speaking ones. Mr. Foley recognized them with dread.

      They were the ones who had called him “naughty” during the worst torture. They were the ones the hostages called the Beatles. They instituted a strict security protocol.

      When they approached the cell holding Mr. Suder, the Polish photojournalist, they called out “arba’een”: Arabic for the number 40.

      That was his cue to face the wall so that when the guards entered, he would not see their faces. Several hostages were given numbers in Arabic, which appeared to be an effort to catalog them — not unlike the numbers American forces had assigned to prisoners in the detention facilities they ran in Iraq, including Camp Bucca, where Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State, was briefly held.

      “When the Beatles took over, they wanted to bring a certain level of order to the hostages,” said one recently freed European captive.

      The jihadists had gone from obscurity to running what they called a state.

      In areas under their control, they established an intricate bureaucracy, including a tribunal, a police force and even a consumer protection office, which forced kebab stands to close for selling low-quality products.

      That focus on order extended to the hostages.

      After months of holding them without making any demands, the jihadists suddenly devised a plan to ransom them. Starting last November, each prisoner was told to hand over the email address of a relative. Mr. Foley gave the address of his younger brother.

      The group sent a blitz of messages to the families of the hostages.

      Those who were able to lay the emails side by side could see they had been cut and pasted from the same template.

      Triage

      By December, the militants had exchanged several emails with Mr. Foley’s family, as well as with the families of other hostages.

      Photo
      [​IMG]
      The militants continue to hold three hostages, including John Cantlie, left, a British photojournalist, and Peter Kassig, right, an emergency medical technician from Indiana. They say they will kill Mr. Kassig next.
      After the first proof-of-life questions, Mr. Foley was hopeful that he would be home soon. As his second Christmas away from home approached, he threw himself into organizing a jailhouse version of Secret Santa, a tradition in the Foley household.

      Each prisoner gave another a gift fashioned out of trash. Mr. Foley’s Secret Santa gave him a circle made from the wax of a discarded candle to cushion his forehead when he bowed down to pray on the hard floor.

      As the weeks passed, Mr. Foley noticed that his European cellmates were invited outside again and again to answer questions. He was not. Nor were the other Americans, or the Britons.

      Soon, the prisoners realized that their kidnappers had identified which nations were most likely to pay ransoms, said a former hostage, one of five who spoke about their imprisonment in the Islamic State’s network of jails on the condition that their names be withheld.

      “The kidnappers knew which countries would be the most amenable to their demands, and they created an order based on the ease with which they thought they could negotiate,” one said. “They started with the Spanish.”

      Continue reading the main story
      One day, the guards came in and pointed to the three Spanish captives. They said they knew the Spanish government had paid six million euros for a group of aid workers kidnapped by a Qaeda cell in Mauritania, a figure available online in articles about the episode.

      As the negotiations for the Spanish prisoners progressed rapidly — the first was released this March, six months after he had been captured — the militants moved on to the four French journalists.

      The European prisoners went from answering additional personal questions to filming videos to be sent to their families or governments. The videos became more and more charged, eventually including death threats and execution deadlines in an effort to force their nations to payExecution Deadlines

      This spring, the hostages were moved from below the hospital in Aleppo to Raqqa, the capital of the Islamic State’s self-declared caliphate. They were incarcerated in a building outside an oil installation, where they were again divided by sex.

      By March, the militants had concluded the negotiations for the three Spanish journalists.

      When the first deliveries of cash arrived, the guards discovered that some of the bills were damaged. They complained to the remaining hostages that their governments did not even have the decency to send crisp notes.

      By April, nearly half of the captives had been freed. There had been no progress, however, on the ransom demands the jihadists had made for their American and British hostages.

      During the triage phase, the guards identified the single Russian hostage, a man known to the others as Sergey, as the least marketable commodity.

      Identified in the Russian news media as Sergey Gorbunov, he was last seen in a video released in October 2013. Stuttering, he said that if Moscow failed to meet the kidnappers’ demands, he would be killed.

      Photo
      [​IMG]
      Many European hostages were released after their countries paid ransoms. Among them were Javier Espinosa of Spain, left, reunited with his son; and Edouard Elias, Didier François, Nicolas Hénin and Pierre Torres of France, center. Jejoen Bontinck of Belgium, right, joined the Islamic State but later ran afoul of the group.CreditLeft, Paco Campos/Reuters; center, Gonzalo Fuentes, Reuters; right, Virginia Mayo/Associated Press
     
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  4. chapped

    chapped Well-Known Member

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    • Sometime this spring, the masked men came for him.

      They dragged the terrified prisoner outside and shot him. They filmed his body. Then they returned to show the footage to the surviving hostages.

      “This,” they said, “is what will happen to you if your government doesn’t pay.”

      Goodbyes

      Mr. Foley watched as his cellmates were released in roughly two-week increments.

      As the number of people in the 20-square-meter cell in Raqqa grew smaller, it was hard to stay hopeful. Yet Mr. Foley, who had campaigned for President Obama, continued to believe his government would come to his rescue, said his family, who learned this from recently freed hostages.

      On May 27, the few remaining hostages were reminded that different passports spelled different fates.

      Those who had been taken together were, in most cases, released together. Not so for the Italian and British aid workers for the Agency for Technical Cooperation and Development, a small French organization, who were grabbed less than a mile from the Turkish border after returning from a refugee camp where they had gone to deliver tents.

      In late May, the Italian, Federico Motka, was told he could go, according to a fellow captive, allegedly after Italy paid a ransom. (The Italian government denied the claim.) But his co-worker, Mr. Haines, was left chained inside. Mr. Haines was beheaded in September after being forced to read a script blaming the British government for his death.

      By June, the cellblock that had once held at least 23 people had been reduced to just seven. Four of them were Americans, and three were British — all citizens of countries whose governments had refused to pay ransoms.

      In an article recently published in an official Islamic State magazine, the jihadists described the American-led airstrikesthat began in August as the nail in those hostages’ coffins.

      At the same time, they laid out the role European and American ransom policies had played in their decision to kill Mr. Foley.

      Continue reading the main story
      Continue reading the main story

      “As the American government was dragging its feet, reluctant to save James’s life,” they wrote in the magazine, Dabiq, “negotiations were made by the governments of a number of European prisoners, which resulted in the release of a dozen of their prisoners after the demands of the Islamic State were met.”

      Fifteen hostages were freed from March to June for ransoms averaging more than two million euros, the former captives and those close to them said.

      Among the last to go was a Danish photojournalist, Daniel Rye Ottosen, 25, released in June after his family cobbled together a multimillion-euro ransom, three people briefed on the negotiation said. He was one of several departing hostages who managed to smuggle out letters from his cellmates.

      “I am obviously pretty scared to die,” Mr. Kassig wrote in a letter recently published by his family. “The hardest part is not knowing — hoping, and wondering if I should even hope at all.”

      Mr. Foley seemed to sense the end was near. In his letter, amid expressions of love, he slipped in a sentence instructing his family on how to disburse the money in his bank account.

      In August, when the militants came for him, they made him slip on a pair of plastic sandals. They drove him to a bare hill outside Raqqa. They made him kneel. He looked straight into the camera, his expression defiant. Then they slit his throat.

      Two weeks later, a similar video surfaced on YouTube showing Mr. Sotloff’s death. In September, the militants uploaded Mr. Haines’s execution. In October, they killed Mr. Henning. Only three from the original group of 23 remain: two Americans, Mr. Kassig and a woman who has not been identified, as well as a Briton, Mr. Cantlie.

      The militants have announced they will kill Mr. Kassig next.

      Across Europe, those who had survived gasped when they saw the footage of their cellmate’s death: The cheap, beige-colored plastic flip-flops splayed next to Mr. Foley’s body were the same pair the prisoners had shared.

      They had all worn those sandals to the bathroom.

      Those who survived had walked in the same shoes as those who did not.

      Correction: October 25, 2014
      An earlier version of a picture caption with this article misspelled the given name of a British aid worker who was beheaded. He is David Cawthorne Haines, not Davis Cawthorne Haines.



      Glenna Gordon contributed reporting from Paris, Madrid and Copenhagen; Eric Schmitt from Washington; and Karam Shoumali from Istanbul. Jack Begg, Sheelagh McNeill and Alain Delaquérière contributed research.

      A version of this article appears in print on October 26, 2014, on page A1 of the New York edition with the headline: The Horror Before the Beheadings .

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/w...what-isis-hostages-endured-in-syria.html?_r=0
     
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  5. VarmintSam

    VarmintSam Well-Known Member VIP Gold

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    Religion of peace my ass.
     
  6. ScottBaiosPenis

    ScottBaiosPenis Well-Known Member

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    My small temple does a special prayer for Mr. Sotloff every Saturday morning. Like many before him he died that his faith may live ... A Good man and example to all Jews may God bless his soul
     
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  7. VarmintSam

    VarmintSam Well-Known Member VIP Gold

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    Fuck off with that bullshit. Jews are just as guilty.
     
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  8. chapped

    chapped Well-Known Member

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    but he died needlessly... if the article is accurate and i tend to think it is

    what sticks out like a sore thumb is the wiliness of other countries to do what they have to to free its citizens...

    seems odd that we don't negotiate one second and we do the next

    shit the USA who has a long history of negotiating with terrorist

    Viet Cong, The Reagan administration and Lebanon terrorist, and just this year Bowe Bergdahl

    What if it had been one of O's kids or a few years ago one of Bush's kids?
     
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  9. Fa Fa Fruit Fly

    Fa Fa Fruit Fly Well-Known Member

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    That's fucking stupid.

    He died because of the very same bullshit that you are spouting here - religious kookery. All the major religions are full of crazy batshit-insane ridiculous shit, the only difference is much of muslim culture is about a few hundred years behind the rest of the world. A few hundred years ago, christians were burning people alive because their bible told them that they should not suffer a witch. And not long before that the church was telling them they were guaranteed a spot in paradise if they went over to the middle east and slaughtered women and children heretics... and they were assured plenty of raping and pillaging as well.

    Spare me the "that was the past" bullshit. In my lifetime there are enough religious kooks to make me vomit... trying to suppress science in favor of religious nonsense, fucking little boys in church and getting a free pass from their bosses, trying to persecute gays, trying to control our lives by taking away a woman's choice, trying to force people to pray to their god, trying to make us all live under their 'caliphate', and such. Not to mention trying to squash lines of medical research they consider "heretical" and endangering the lives of millions in the process.

    Fuck all you religious kooks who don't realize you are just as mentally retarded as the retards over in Syria - the only difference being that *cultural* advancement and the elimination of religion from our lives has made your kookery less violent.
     
  10. AllAboutHim Ed

    AllAboutHim Ed #mypurpose VIP

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    Take my agnostic word for it, you're a stupid asshole.
     
  11. ScottBaiosPenis

    ScottBaiosPenis Well-Known Member

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    the difference... jews dont want to make u do anything, we just like to be left alone
     
  12. ScottBaiosPenis

    ScottBaiosPenis Well-Known Member

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    it makes sense from either side...the spanish will clearly be bigger targets for kidnap because its known their gov pays,same for french etc...

    what i dont get is could their families not raise the money from anywhere, donors, etc..? it doesnt say how much they were asking exactly but u would think theres got to be some charities or wealthy benefactors who would quietly put up the $ for their release so its not coming from the gov
     
  13. Samurai

    Samurai Well-Known Member VIP

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    Even as agnostic as I am, I recognize the folly of your moral equivalency. "A few hundred years" is much longer than any of us have been alive. The recent moral failings of certain Christian churches, abhorant as they are, pales in comparison to the atrocities committed by radicals in the name of Allah.

    "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." Winston Churchill
     
  14. ScottBaiosPenis

    ScottBaiosPenis Well-Known Member

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    none of the violence there has to do with religion anyway its a nice pretext to sell to the people but like any other armed conflict it is about power and resources . i think religion is backwards and silly these days but ppl who think everything would be peace and love without it are really looking at a very specious and superficial level. we are talking about an org thats controlling millions of dollars a day and u think their really guided by some moldy old books, if so why not let the guys go who converted? its a nice story that keeps the lower level rubes in line but just like saddam, stalin,castro etc...its about POWER and MONEY religion is just a nice pretext just like pan-arabism, communism or any other ism
     
  15. ScottBaiosPenis

    ScottBaiosPenis Well-Known Member

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    most of the guys who are ousted (saddam, khadaffi,etc..) were not particularly pious guys they were not into sharia and all that shit... they were still just as brutal in their ways...its a cultural thing...there just backwards
     
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  16. Brokenbad

    Brokenbad Well-Known Member

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    Roland the headless freelance reporter
     
  17. Chief2Kick

    Chief2Kick I'm all sixes & sevens & nines Staff Member

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    The US government isn't going to negotiate the release of every person that gets nabbed by some group.
     
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  18. jennyb

    jennyb Well-Known Member Banned User

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    But the jist of his post is that all religions suck ass. ...which is TRUE!

    Muslims suck....the fucking Jews...orthodox..hassidic. ...ugh..misogynistic assholes

    And of course your lovely IDIOT Christians
     
  19. jennyb

    jennyb Well-Known Member Banned User

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    L
     
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  20. jennyb

    jennyb Well-Known Member Banned User

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    And people who actually believe in the Bible or the Koran over science ARE idiots